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[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] RE: iSCSI: remove recovery from transport-layer connection failure(?)Julian, If the scenario you point out is correct (a single command lasting for such a long time), then of course we need a mechanism where we can restart the command from the approximate point of failure. However that would be failures lasting for "more than a fraction of a sec". First of all, a TCP connection does not indicate a failure that quickly. Secondly, there are ways to recover from a path failure and still preserve a TCP connection in High-Availability environments. I am sure most system vendors would be implementing such techniques. Somesh -----Original Message----- From: julian_satran@il.ibm.com [mailto:julian_satran@il.ibm.com] Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 1:52 AM To: ips@ece.cmu.edu Subject: Re: iSCSI: remove recovery from transport-layer connection failure(?) Steph, Assume than in the new wonderfull SAN world you have started a disk-to-tape (or disk-to-disk) long third party copy. The SAN is fine and the copy proceeds for an hour but the lousy initiator-to-copy-manager link (on which accidentally no data transfer took place) fails for a fraction of a second. Should we restart the command under-the-cover or drop it or ask the parties to provide state information to a specific SCSI restart driver? And we can build many similar scenarios. I think that whatever we can do simplify exception handling we should do (the same arguments that hold for multiple connections hold here too). I would add that in Ideal world - I would like to have transport "splice" a new TCP connection with an old TCP connection but failing this to happen (again SCTP is doing it already or not?) we should take care that simple events like a cable taken-out in some obscure part of the network will only seldom affect higher layers. Julo Stephen Bailey <steph@cs.uchicago.edu> on 27/09/2000 07:16:12 Please respond to Stephen Bailey <steph@cs.uchicago.edu> To: ips@ece.cmu.edu cc: (bcc: Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM) Subject: Re: iSCSI: remove recovery from transport-layer connection failure(?) > Currently, iSCSI is spec'ed to recover from transport-layer > connection failures. > > The main motivation for this decision was to support tape backup > applications that are quite sensitive to any failures that get > propogated to their layer. > > So, perhaps we can remove the requirement of recovering from > transport-layer connection failures in iSCSI. This would simplify > the protocol somewhat. > > Thoughts? I'm all for eliminating command recovery. There seem to be several reasons advanced for command recovery. The first seems to be based upon an inappropriate analogy to FCP. Command recovery had to be added to FCP-2 because the FC layer is unreliable. A single dropped FC frame leads to a failed FCP command. This clearly upsets tape operation even when the link is performing nominally. In FCP, without command recovery, with some observable frequency, you will get an expected error that leads to complete, irrecoverable failure of a transfer stream. The other thing that makes FCP-2 command recovery work well is when you are doing a write, which is 90% (maybe it's 99%?) of tape operation, the target can return an early indication of most frame drops, rather than waiting for a timer to expire. TCP's reliability solves this problem in another way. By the time you get a TCP connection failure, you have already exhausted a set of reliability mechanisms which guarantee, with high certainty, that further data can not be transferred between the two endpoints. `the two endpoints' phrase suggests the other reason advanced for command recovery. That is, to permit path failover for commands which are not idempotent, such as tape write sequential. The problem with this, is that it is not clear HOW iSCSI command recovery can actually work properly, given a TCP connection failure indication. It takes a long time for a TCP connection to fail, and by that time, I'm not sure recovery would reasonably be possible. Perhaps I'm in error on this assumption. Can a tape guru (Joe from Exabyte?) comment on whether recovery would be possible after many seconds (tens, hundreds) have elapsed? The SCSI layer has never been solely responsible for ensuring reliable backup. Macro scale things go wrong with tape (run off the end, get eaten, etc..) with relatively high frequency. A low level backup engine like tar or dump will fail on a SCSI error, and that's OK. There must also be a higher level software component like Amanda, which manages retries, including operator intervention, to ensure reliable backup. It seems like whether iSCSI has a command recovery mechanism should be a function of whether somebody can stand up and say for sure that it solves a real problem. So far it only seems like it MIGHT solve a problem. Who can say `this solves MY problem!'? Steph
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