RE: [Tsvwg] [SCTP checksum problems]

["WENDT,JIM (HP-Roseville,ex1)" <jim_wendt@hp.com>]

I think this "SCTP checksum" thread spanning IPS and TSVWG was for
discussion around whether or not iSCSI (running over SCTP) could forgo data
integrity checking and transport-like functionality (retransmission, ack,
etc) should SCTP provide a sufficiently strong check-code.
If iSCSI were willing to completely trust SCTP end-to-end across a network
fabric (including "middleboxes"), then that provides one reason for SCTP to
adopt a stronger checksum or CRC.
If iSCSI will still implement its own data integrity check-code above SCTP,
then SCTP needs to make an independent decision on whether its current
check-code is sufficiently strong for its target uses.
Currently, iSCSI contains a data integrity check "digest" that can be
negotiated end-to-end to be disabled on a per-connection basis.

This discussion begs a few questions:
- Are there clearly different classes of applications (in regards to their
end-to-end data integrity strength needs)?
- How are these application classes' end-to-end data integrity needs meet in
the future?  Is it SCTP, IPSec, application-specific protocol, a new
protocol?
- Is there a general need for strong end-to-end data integrity that could be
provided for in a recommended generic manner?
- Is iSCSI unique in being an "ultra-low error rate application" and should
iSCSI then handle its own data integrity?
- Should SCTP strengthen its checksum to meet the needs of a general class
of data-criticial applications, and/or provide a means for negotiating an
optional stronger checksum?
- What is the role of network infrastructure (router/middlebox hardware and
software) in strengthening end-to-end data integrity?

Data integrity for iSCSI over TCP is a separate issue. It is unlikely that
we will be able to evolve TCP in a timely manner to utilize a stronger
check-code given TCP's current wide scale deployment (although adding a
stronger checksum/CRC to TCP would seem to be the best solution). So,
something else has to be done either above or below TCP to provide the
required level of iSCSI data integrity. Of course, if TCP's data integrity
deficiency is impacting other data-critical applications, then it seems
prudent to at least consider solving the problem generically.

Jim


> -----Original Message-----
> From: julian_satran@il.ibm.com [mailto:julian_satran@il.ibm.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 1:02 AM
> To: Chip Sharp
> Cc: vince_cavanna@agilent.com; steph@cs.uchicago.edu; WENDT,JIM
> (HP-Roseville,ex1); ips@ece.cmu.edu; tsvwg@ietf.org;
> craig@aland.bbn.com; Jonathan.Wood@sun.com; xieqb@cig.mot.com;
> jonathan@dsg.stanford.edu; rrs@cisco.com
> Subject: RE: [Tsvwg] [SCTP checksum problems]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chip,
> 
> CRC s are not meant to protect against malicious middle boxes 
> - rather on
> boxes that strip the strong link CRCs and
> let the end-system rely on the weak TCP checksum.
> 
> NAT boxes have good reason to recompute TCP checksums, but 
> unless they are
> malicious no reason to recompute iSCSI CRCs.
> 
> And against malicious boxes iSCSI has cryptographic digests 
> as options.
> 
> And I was not aware that we are discussing - in this forum - 
> iSCSI data
> integrity options.
> 
> Julo
> 
> Chip Sharp <chsharp@cisco.com> on 19/04/2001 18:53:53
> 
> Please respond to Chip Sharp <chsharp@cisco.com>
> 
> To:   vince_cavanna@agilent.com
> cc:   steph@cs.uchicago.edu, vince_cavanna@agilent.com, 
> jim_wendt@hp.com,
>       Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu, tsvwg@ietf.org,
>       craig@aland.bbn.com, Jonathan.Wood@sun.com, xieqb@cig.mot.com,
>       jonathan@dsg.stanford.edu, rrs@cisco.com
> Subject:  RE: [Tsvwg] [SCTP checksum problems]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As was pointed out previously, middle box operations (such as 
> NATs) tend to
> creep up the protocol stack and into applications.
> 
> Take SIP for example.  It includes IP addresses in its 
> INVITE.  In order to
> work across a NAT, the IP addresses it exchanges have to be 
> replaced with
> the NATed address.  One way is for the NAT to reach up into 
> the SIP INVITE
> and change the address.  This modifies the TCP or UDP 
> checksum.  Now SIP
> could have included its own integrity check to protect 
> against corrupted or
> modified TCP checksums, but all that would have happened is 
> that NATs would
> have changed the SIP checksum in addition to the TCP/UDP checksum.
> 
> Therefore, even if iSCSI included its own integrity check, if 
> a middle box
> is going to futz with iSCSI packets it will just strip the check, do
> whatever it does and then recalculate the check.
> 
> If this is what you want to protect against you will have to 
> go to some
> type of digital signature.
> 
> At 12:22 PM 4/19/2001, vince_cavanna@agilent.com wrote:
> >Stephen,
> >
> >I have to admit that I do not have much direct experience with middle
> boxes,
> >BUT I did have fairly direct and recent experience with a popular NAT
> router
> >from a popular vendor that was corrupting data in a network of
> Macintoshes.
> >
> >Apple's TCP was unaware of any problem as was Apple's Filing 
> Protocol and
> >most applications. The only applications that detected the 
> corruption were
> >those that performed an integrity check of their own. Those 
> applications
> >that assumed a reliable transport (and file system) were doomed to
> >experiencing the indirect effects of the corruption at some 
> later time.
> The
> >corruption only happened when large amounts of data were transferred
> >quickly.  The router vendor fixed the problem once; then 
> fixed it again;
> >then fixed it one last time before the data corruption finally
> >"disappeared". After several weeks of continuous operation the router
> >appeared to get into a mode where it was once again 
> corrupting data. Power
> >cycling the router "fixed it". The story apparently has not 
> yet ended.
> >
> >I admit I may have given too much significance to this 
> single incident
> that
> >I have personally experienced but on the other hand I don't see the
> >mechanisms in place to prevent this type of problem in the 
> future other
> than
> >the end to end integrity checks.
> >
> >Incidentally this incident change my behavior when 
> transferring data over
> a
> >network. I will always use a compression utility; not only 
> for reducing
> the
> >data to be transmitted but to ensure the integrity of my 
> data is protected
> >end to end by the utility's CRC mechanism.
> >
> >I believe quite firmly that we DO need a mechanism to allow 
> us to tolerate
> >poor implementations of middle boxes and cannot simply hope that
> eventually
> >such poor implementations will vanish, nor that we will have 
> the luxury of
> >being able to select only good implementations for every 
> component of our
> >storage network.
> >
> >Vince
> >
> >|-----Original Message-----
> >|From: Stephen Bailey [mailto:steph@cs.uchicago.edu]
> >|Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 3:09 PM
> >|To: CAVANNA,VICENTE V (A-Roseville,ex1)
> >|Cc: 'WENDT,JIM (HP-Roseville,ex1)'; 'julian_satran@il.ibm.com';
> >|ips@ece.cmu.edu; tsvwg@ietf.org; 'Craig Partridge'; Jonathan Wood;
> >|xieqb@cig.mot.com; Jonathan Stone; Randall Stewart
> >|Subject: Re: [Tsvwg] [SCTP checksum problems]
> >|
> >|
> >|Vince,
> >|
> >|> I don't think iSCSI can be completely relieved of performing
> >|some data
> >|> integrity checking as long as there exists the possibility
> >|of "middle boxes"
> >|> opening up the transport protocol's packet and thus
> >|potentially invalidating
> >|> any reliability guarantees the transport protocol makes.
> >|
> >|Any protection provided against this failure mode will only be
> >|transient, so we must temper the desire to introduce such a
> >|requirement with reality.
> >|
> >|Middleboxes can just as easily open up to the iSCSI layer and tinker
> >|with the payload, as they do with other ULPs running on TCP 
> (e.g HTTP)
> >|today.  Short of securing the connection, there is ALWAYS a
> >|possibility of a middlebox terminating and reoriginating an 
> integrity
> >|check.  In case you think this is a farfetched scenario, I 
> do get the
> >|impression that there is a high level of interest in `actively
> >|middling' iSCSI once the specs crystalize.  Who shaves the barber?
> >|
> >|An integrity check is not necessary as long as some lower layer
> >|provides adequate integrity guarantees.
> >|
> >|Adding an integrity check above the transport layer is based upon
> >|documentation of the presence of a lot of crappy network 
> hardware and
> >|software and analyses of the transport integrity check (TCP 
> checksum)
> >|which suggests it might not be adequately strong against some such
> >|observed errors.
> >|
> >|I claim that the high incidence of `broken' (corruption introducing)
> >|components is a result of a variety of factors which have shaped the
> >|development of network components thus far.  The fact that integrity
> >|checks are assumed to be performed in a network context 
> substantially
> >|lowers the bar for implementation correctness.
> >|
> >|In a storage (or CPU) context, these types of implementation errors
> >|are a) more easily detectable (more fatal) b) more carefully avoided
> >|during implementation (because of the cost of a potential fatal
> >|error).  If network components magically reached the same `quality
> >|level' as storage and CPU components, there might be no 
> justification
> >|for additional integrity checks above the transport.  
> Similarly if the
> >|transport (or whatever lower layer) integrity checks are very strong
> >|(e.g. IPSec), there is, again, no need for a higher level integrity
> >|check.
> >|
> >|I am not disagreeing that we need an additional integrity check over
> >|TCP in the present target environment, but I do disagree that iSCSI
> >|will always need such a check, independently of what is running
> >|beneath it.
> >|
> >|Steph
> >|
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Chip Sharp                       Consulting Engineering
> Cisco Systems
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
>