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    RE: iscsi : numerical negotiation wording is ambiguous



    > The first & third example below seem illogical.
    
    I agree.
    
    > So I guess this puts me in the "responder selects logic" 
    > camp.
    
    Same here.
    
    -Shawn
    
    -------------------------------------------------------
     Shawn Carl Erickson           (805) 883-4319 [Telnet]
     Hewlett Packard Company         OV NSSO Joint Venture
      Storage Resource Management R&D Lab (Santa Barbara)
    -------------------------------------------------------
                <http://ecardfile.com/id/shawnce>
    -------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Sandeep Joshi [mailto:sandeepj@research.bell-labs.com]
    > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:29 AM
    > To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
    > Subject: Re: iscsi : numerical negotiation wording is ambiguous
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > The first & third example below seem illogical. 
    > 
    > The responder should not be sending 24K if the initial
    > sender has chosen a value of 16K, since there is no
    > possibility of that 24K being accepted (unless we want
    > three way exchanges for every negotiation??)   
    > 
    > The problem of a Reject message does not arise since the 
    > responder should only be choosing something less than 16K.
    > So I guess this puts me in the "responder selects logic" 
    > camp.
    > 
    > -Sandeep
    > 
    > 
    > Julian Satran wrote:
    > > 
    > > An example:
    > >  08.txt logic
    > > i->t DataPDULength=16k
    > > t->i DataPDULength= 24k
    > > 
    > > Selected value is 16k
    > > 
    > > i->t DataPDULength=16k
    > > t->i DataPDULength= 8k
    > > 
    > > Selected value is 8k
    > > 
    > > t->i DataPDULength=16k
    > > i->t DataPDULength= 24k
    > > 
    > > Selected value is 16k
    > > 
    > > t->i DataPDULength=16k
    > > i->t DataPDULength= 8k
    > > 
    > > Selected value is 8k
    > > 
    > > -----
    > > 
    > > Responder selects logic
    > > 
    > > i->t DataPDULength=16k
    > > t->i DataPDULength= 24k
    > > 
    > > Error - Initiator Reject - Closes connection
    > > 
    > > i->t DataPDULength=16k
    > > t->i DataPDULength= 8k
    > > 
    > > Selected value is 8k
    > > 
    > > t->i DataPDULength=16k
    > > i->t DataPDULength= 24k
    > > 
    > > Error Target has to terminate with parameter error
    > > 
    > > t->i DataPDULength=16k
    > > i->t DataPDULength= 8k
    > > 
    > > Selected value is 8k
    > > 
    > >   "Dev - Platys"
    > >   <deva@platys.com>                To:        "Julian Satran"
    > >                            <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>,
    > >   01-10-01 23:46           <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
    > >   Please respond to "Dev -         cc:
    > >   Platys"                          Subject:        RE: iscsi :
    > >                            numerical negotiation wording is 
    > ambiguous
    > > 
    > > 
    > > 
    > > Julian,
    > > 
    > > I am not sure why a 'REJECT' is required.
    > > Can you please explain why is this required?
    > > 
    > > I am with Santosh in this.
    > > 
    > > >There is NO need for any REJECT in the above >case. If the 
    > initiator
    > > >is'nt satisfied with the value returned by the >originator 
    > and cannot
    > > >function with the negotiated values, it can simply >close the TCP
    > > >connection. There is no need to send any >REJECT.
    > > 
    > > Thanks
    > > 
    > > Deva
    > > Adaptec
    > > 
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
    > [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of
    > > Julian Satran
    > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 1:28 PM
    > > To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
    > > Subject: Re: iscsi : numerical negotiation wording is ambiguous
    > > 
    > > Santosh,
    > > 
    > > We are getting nowhere. Even if requester is doing it's stuff - the
    > > requester will have to check and be prepared for a mistake. 
    > The coding
    > > will require a reject.
    > > 
    > > Julo
    > > 
    > >   Santosh Rao
    > >   <santoshr@cup.hp.com>        To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu
    > >   Sent by:                     cc:        "Sanjeev Bhagat
    > >   santoshr@cup.hp.com   (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)" <sbhagat@tripace.com>,
    > >                         Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
    > >   01-10-01 20:37               Subject:        Re: iscsi : numerical
    > >   Please respond to     negotiation wording is ambiguous
    > >   Santosh Rao
    > > 
    > > 
    > > Julian & Sanjeev,
    > > 
    > > Responding to both your mails......
    > > 
    > > Julian :
    > > 
    > > I think you may have mis-interpreted my comments. I believe Sanjeev
    > > has
    > > clarified the intent of my suggestions.
    > > 
    > > I am *not* suggesting that the responder send back its values and
    > > these
    > > be blindly imposed on the originator. On the contrary, my suggestion
    > > is
    > > that the computation of the result of the negotiation 
    > (higher or lower
    > > of the 2 values) be only performed by the responder and sent back to
    > > the
    > > originator.
    > > 
    > > The result of the negotiation is the same in both cases and there is
    > > no
    > > REJECT required in my case nor yours. The difference is the 
    > advantages
    > > I've stated in my model.
    > > 
    > > Sanjeev, in response to your comment :
    > > 
    > > " [Sanjeev Bhagat (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)] Although there is
    > > >  no reject , but it can be a problem in future .
    > > >  Consider your example of DataPDULength in your own
    > > >  message. Suppose offering party sends a value of 16,384
    > > >  (this is also lowest value it can send) and responding
    > > >  party responds with 8,192. In this case the offering
    > > >  party will have to reject the negotiation. So a reject
    > > >  message is needed in this case also. "
    > > 
    > > There is NO need for any REJECT in the above case. If the initiator
    > > is'nt satisfied with the value returned by the originator and cannot
    > > function with the negotiated values, it can simply close the TCP
    > > connection. There is no need to send any REJECT.
    > > 
    > > Thanks,
    > > Santosh
    > > 
    > > > "Sanjeev Bhagat (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)" wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Thanks Julian, please find my further comments in the message
    > > >
    > > >      -----Original Message-----
    > > >      From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
    > > >      Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 6:07 PM
    > > >      To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
    > > >      Subject: RE: iscsi : numerical negotiation wording is
    > > >      ambiguous
    > > >
    > > >      Sanjeev,
    > > >
    > > >      I am not sure clear I made the tiny diference between what I
    > > >      say and what Santosh said:
    > > >
    > > >      Santosh says:
    > > >
    > > >        1. a requester sends A=valuex
    > > >        2. a responder sends B=valuey
    > > >        3. the responder assumes that the value y is the correct
    > > >           value and so does an external observer
    > > >           [Sanjeev Bhagat (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)] I would rather
    > > >           say it this way the responder computes the value with
    > > >           its own supported values and responds with a value y
    > > >           which the responder thinks is correct and so does an
    > > >           external observer
    > > >        4. the requester checks that valuey is conformant (he will
    > > >           not believe it) and will reject it if not conformant
    > > >           else it will accept it
    > > >           [Sanjeev Bhagat (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)] Although correct,
    > > >           but it is highly unlikely for the responder to reject
    > > >           the final result because the rule states that (lower or
    > > >           higher of two will be the result) and so the offering
    > > >           party should be able to accept the lower or higher
    > > >           range as defined by rule. In case the key is dependent
    > > >           upon some range of fixed values then the negotiation
    > > >           should be performed as list negotiation and not
    > > >           numerical negotiation.
    > > >
    > > >           This might be what you "conventionally" do - I don't
    > > >           and that shows that convention like morals are a matter
    > > >           of geography :-)
    > > >           [Sanjeev Bhagat (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)] :-)
    > > >
    > > >           The advantage of this set of rules is that it allows an
    > > >           external observer to know what was selected without
    > > >           knowing the rules
    > > >           [Sanjeev Bhagat (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)] Even in this
    > > >           case, I guess that the external observer has to know
    > > >           the rules to double check the value is correct or not
    > > >           The disadvantage is that messages have to be "built",
    > > >           an additional reject states exists and MOST IMPORTANT
    > > >           you need both messages
    > > >
    > > >           In what I said:
    > > >
    > > >           1. The requester sends A=valuex
    > > >           2. The Responder has to send either nothing (if valuex
    > > >           is enough on both sides to compute the result like in
    > > >           the case in which the function is a Boolean AND and the
    > > >           value is NO) or valuey
    > > >           3. Both the requestor and responder have to compute the
    > > >           value (they have to know the rules anyhow) and so does
    > > >           the external observer
    > > >
    > > >           The disadvantage is that the external observer has to
    > > >           know the rules
    > > >           The advantage is that there is no reject, in binary
    > > >           negotiations you can go away with shorter negotiations
    > > >           and you can set strings at fixed values.
    > > >           [Sanjeev Bhagat (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)] Although there is
    > > >           no reject , but it can be a problem in future .
    > > >           Consider your example of DataPDULength in your own
    > > >           message. Suppose offering party sends a value of 16,384
    > > >           (this is also lowest value it can send) and responding
    > > >           party responds with 8,192. In this case the offering
    > > >           party will have to reject the negotiation. So a reject
    > > >           message is needed in this case also.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >      Sanjeev
    > > >       "Sanjeev Bhagat
    > > >       (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)"                    To:        
    > "'Santosh
    > > Rao'"
    > > >       <sbhagat@tripace.com>            
    > <santoshr@cup.hp.com>, Julian
    > > >       Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu   Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
    > > >                                                cc:
    > >  ips@ece.cmu.edu
    > > >       30-09-01 16:32                           Subject:        RE:
    > > iscsi :
    > > >       Please respond to "Sanjeev       numerical 
    > negotiation wording
    > > is
    > > >       Bhagat (TRIPACE/Zoetermeer)"     ambiguous
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >      All,
    > > >
    > > >      I agree with Santosh that the responding party must respond
    > > >      the result of
    > > >      the negotiation as compared with the value from offering
    > > >      party. All
    > > >      negotiations in SCSI like (sync, disconnect etc) are also
    > > >      done the same way.
    > > >      I also object to Julian's reason of a simple minded target
    > > >      which wants to
    > > >      send certain fixed values only. In case a simple minded
    > > >      target identifies a
    > > >      value which it cannot support or is less than the value a
    > > >      target can
    > > >      support, then there should be a method for target to reject
    > > >      such a
    > > >      negotiation and the default values be accepted on both side
    > > >      as a result of
    > > >      negotiation.
    > > >
    > > >      1 Because even if simple minded target sends its fixed value
    > > >      which is
    > > >      greater than the value sent by offering party then the final
    > > >      result of
    > > >      negotiation will be taken as ( lesser of the two) and in
    > > >      this case target
    > > >      which which cannot support the lower value will produce some
    > > >      illegal
    > > >      results.
    > > >
    > > >      2. if simple minded target wants to send its own value and
    > > >      wants it to be
    > > >      accpeted then the responding party is not negotiating but
    > > >      forcing the result
    > > >      on initiator(this method should not be allowed unless
    > > >      explicitly mentioned).
    > > >
    > > >      however if there is another proposal of numeric negotiation
    > > >      in which the
    > > >      responding party can force its result to be over ridden by
    > > >      the offering
    > > >      party's result then it is acceptable for offering party and
    > > >      responding party
    > > >      to send there own supported key-value result and it can then
    > > >      be computed at
    > > >      offering party's end.
    > > >
    > > >      IMP: (May be I am missing something here) I do not see how a
    > > >      numeric
    > > >      negotiation can be rejected. Is it possible to reject such
    > > >      kind of
    > > >      negotiaion?
    > > >
    > > >      Sanjeev
    > > >
    > > >      -----Original Message-----
    > > >      From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
    > > >      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 11:15 PM
    > > >      To: Julian Satran
    > > >      Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
    > > >      Subject: Re: iscsi : numerical negotiation wording is
    > > >      ambiguous
    > > >
    > > >      Julian & All,
    > > >
    > > >      I request the group to take a close look at this negotiation
    > > >      process
    > > >      again and [re-]evaluate the alternative being proposed.
    > > >
    > > >      Further, it appears that the login stage negotiation  is
    > > >      also following
    > > >      the same algorithm as the login key negotiation, wherein
    > > >      originator &
    > > >      responder offer their respective values and both sides need
    > > >      to determine
    > > >      the result of the negotiation. i.e. both initiator and
    > > >      target need to
    > > >      compare their NSG with the other party's NSG and pick the
    > > >      lower of the
    > > >      2.
    > > >
    > > >      I suggest that both the login key negotiation and the login
    > > >      stage
    > > >      negotiation follow the policy that the originator offers a
    > > >      value and the
    > > >      responder picks the result of the negotiation based on (the
    > > >      offered
    > > >      value & its own value). The value picked by the responder is
    > > >      sent back
    > > >      to the originator.
    > > >
    > > >      This model has the following advantages :
    > > >
    > > >      1) Only one side picks the result of the negotiaton. Hence,
    > > >      the 2 sides
    > > >      cannot go out of sync on the value picked.
    > > >
    > > >      2) The originator knows the negotiated result at the the
    > > >      responder since
    > > >      the responder sends back the result of the negotiation.
    > > >
    > > >      3) This model is easier to debug because of (1) & (2).
    > > >
    > > >      4) Less code since only 1 party (responder) needs to perform
    > > >      the
    > > >      computation to pick the result of the negotiation.
    > > >
    > > >      5) This scheme leaves less room for interop problems and
    > > >      mis-interpretation since it is the more familiar negotiation
    > > >      technique
    > > >      that is in use in most other mass storage protocols. (ex :
    > > >      FC PLOGI, FC
    > > >      PRLI, etc). From a first reading of the current negotiation
    > > >      scheme, it
    > > >      is'nt readily apparent that the currently defined model is
    > > >      different
    > > >      from the above and requires both sides to be picking the
    > > >      result of the
    > > >      negotiation, instead of just the responder.
    > > >
    > > >      Comments ?
    > > >
    > > >      Thanks,
    > > >      Santosh
    > > >
    > > 
    > > --
    > > ##################################
    > > Santosh Rao
    > > Software Design Engineer,
    > > HP-UX iSCSI Driver Team,
    > > Hewlett Packard, Cupertino.
    > > email : santoshr@cup.hp.com
    > > Phone : 408-447-3751
    > > ##################################
    > 
    


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