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[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] RE: iSCSI: Out of order commands, was current UNH PlugfestJulian, I don't understand what you are proposing here, what do you mean by "multiplexed" DMA? The problem is that the DMAs take some time, the more there are queued the longer the last DMAs queued take to complete. Some commands require DMAs to complete before they can be sent, i.e. Writes with immediate data, some commands do not, i.e. Reads and writes with no immediate data. The iSCSI HBA wants to be able to send commands as soon a possible, which for a read after a write can be before the write's DMA has completed. Maintaining an ordered queue for commands to be sent on the HBA is expensive and redundant since the target already knows how to queue commands before committing them to its SCSI layer. The iSCSI HBA and its host driver are not at liberty to change the order of commands from the OS, but the DMAs those commands need are unlikely to complete in the same order, and as I mentioned some commands need no DMA. If the HBA can't send commands out of CmdSN order it has to maintain an ordered queue of commands waiting to be sent, and potentially buffer a lot of data. For an HBA this makes immediate data almost impossible to support. I don't see the problem with allowing out of order commands given that the target already has to deal with very similar problems. I think we are getting in to the area of implementation choices here, which is inappropriate for a specification. - Rod -----Original Message----- From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of Julian Satran Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:06 PM To: ips@ece.cmu.edu Subject: Re: iSCSI: Out of order commands, was current UNH Plugfest Rod, I don't see any reason why DMA operations cant be "multiplexed" with commands. If you have scheduled a long outbound DMA you are doomed regardless of the command ordering. And if you have scheduled DMA operations piecemeal then you can insert your commands in correct order. Julo "Rod Harrison" <rod.harrison@windriver.com> 05-11-01 20:48 Please respond to "Rod Harrison" To: Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, <ips@ece.cmu.edu> cc: Subject: iSCSI: Out of order commands, was current UNH Plugfest [ Subject changed ] Julian, The ordering difference is introduced between the host side driver and the iSCSI HBA. The host side driver must present SCSI commands to the HBA in the order they are received from the OS to prevent read after write dependency failures. The HBA might reorder the commands depending on when DMA completes. The reordering can't be done ahead of time in the host driver since it doesn't know how long each DMA might take. As long as the HBA assigns CmdSN in the order it receives commands the desired host ordering is preserved. - Rod -----Original Message----- From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of Julian Satran Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 12:35 AM To: ips@ece.cmu.edu Subject: RE: iSCSI: current UNH Plugfest Rod, I all examples give the point I find hard to understand is why is the ordering on the wire different from the presentation order to the initiator. You can get as many overlaps as you want by presenting the commands to the initiator in the desired order. What we are considering here is the case in which you want to ship in an order different than the one you present the commands. Julo "Rod Harrison" <rod.harrison@windriver.com> Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 04-11-01 04:42 Please respond to "Rod Harrison" To: "Barry Reinhold" <bbrtrebia@mediaone.net>, "Dave Sheehy" <dbs@acropora.rose.agilent.com>, "IETF IP SAN Reflector" <ips@ece.cmu.edu> cc: Subject: RE: iSCSI: current UNH Plugfest Barry, In general I agree but I don't think this is as much of a corner case as it at first appears. Targets will have code very similar to that needed to handle out of order commands to deal with digest errors. Targets also need to queue commands whilst waiting for both solicited and unsolicited data to arrive. Queuing out of order commands seems little extra work. From an initiators point of view there are efficiency, and probably performance gains to be had from sending commands out of order. Bob Russell gave the example of a read being sent whilst write data DMA is happening, and a similar situation can arise with DMA for writes overtaking that of earlier writes if the initiator has multiple DMA engines. In this case the initiator might be forced to let the wire go idle if it can't send the data from completed DMAs as soon as possible. We already have a command queue at the target to enforce correct serialisation of commands, doing the same thing at the initiator is redundant. Finally, I don't believe we should be writing a standard to work around poor coding and test coverage, especially at the cost of potential efficiency gains. I agree with Dave and Santosh that commands being sent out of order on a single session should be allowed by the standard. - Rod -----Original Message----- From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of Barry Reinhold Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 5:24 PM To: Dave Sheehy; IETF IP SAN Reflector Subject: RE: iSCSI: current UNH Plugfest Using features such as out of order command delivery on a connection tend to be the sort of things that lead to interoperability problems. It is unexpected and probably going to hit poorly tested code paths even if the standard is written to allow it. >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of >Dave Sheehy >Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:19 PM >To: IETF IP SAN Reflector >Subject: Re: iSCSI: current UNH Plugfest > > > >> 3. Can commands be sent out of order on the same connection? >> >> The behavior of targets is clearly specified in Section 2.2.2.3 on >> page 25 of draft 8, which says: >> "Except for the commands marked for immediate delivery the iSCSI >> target layer MUST eliver the commands for execution in the order >> specified by CmdSN." >> >> Section 2.2.2.3 on page 26 of draft 8 also says: >> "- CmdSN - the current command Sequence Number advanced by 1 on >> each command shipped except for commands marked for immediate >> delivery." >> but the meaning of the term "shipped" is vague, and does not >> necessarily >> require that the PDUs arrive on the other end of a TCP connection >> in the same order that the CmdSN values were assigned to these PDUs. >> >> Some initiators have been designed to send commands out of CmdSN >> order on one connection. Consider the situation where there is only >> one connection and a high-level dispatcher creates a PDU for a SCSI >> command that involves writing immediate data to the target. This PDU >> is enqueued to a lower-level layer which has to setup, start, and >> wait-for a DMA operation to move the immediate data into an onboard >> buffer before the PDU can be put onto the wire. While this is >> happening, the dispatcher creates another unrelated PDU for a SCSI >> read command (for example), and when this PDU is passed to the >> lower-level layer it can be sent immediately, ahead of the previous >> write PDU and therefore out of order on this connection. >> >> The standard clearly allows this to happen if the two PDUs were sent >> on different connections, and seems to imply that this can also happen >> when the two PDUs are sent on the same connection. >> >> The suggestion is to put in the standard an explicit statement that >> this is allowed or not allowed, as appropriate. >> >> If this is allowed, such a statement would avoid the erroneous >> assumption being made by some target implementers that within a single >> connection, commands will arrive in order. >> >> If this is not allowed, such a statement would avoid the erroneous >> assumption being made by some initiator implementers that within a >> single connection, commands can be put on the wire out of order. >> >> +++ >> >> will add an explicit statement saying that this behaviour is forbidden. >> 2.2.2.1 will contain: >> >> On any given connection, the iSCSI initiator MUST send the >commands in the >> order specified by CmdSN. >> >> +++ > >Why do you feel this behavior should be forbidden? Targets already have to >order commands across the session. I don't see why it's a problem to extend >that to the connection as well. I, for one, believe we should take >a liberal >stance on this. > >Dave Sheehy >
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