RE: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement

["John Hufferd" <hufferd@us.ibm.com>]

Amir,
It could have been a lot of things.  We had many folks look at as many
different approaches as possible, and it bothered us for a long time.  I am
trying to tell you that we DID look at IP addresses being part of the Name.
That was turned down because of a lot of reasons, one of them was the fact
that with Hot Swap, Plug and Play etc. the IP address could change, and
then the name would change, and the reservations could not be reclaimed,
etc.  We even thought that there could be take over of the IP address by
the other HBAs, etc.  And that got just too complicated for the more simple
HBAs and device drivers, and we did not need that level of complexity.  We
were trying to reduce complexity, and I think we did it.

The protocol and the Names and the reason for the names are just different
then IP/ATM, SCTP etc.  We are talking about a higher level protocol, and
the needs of that protocol, and not trying to match it to a lower level
protocol which has no issues with Storage and Reservations.

Bottom Line; Your thoughts were factored in, they  were discarded as Not
Approprate for this protocol and the ISID name.

.
.
.
John L. Hufferd
Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
IBM/SSG San Jose Ca
Main Office (408) 256-0403, Tie: 276-0403,  eFax: (408) 904-4688
Home Office (408) 997-6136, Cell: (408) 499-9702
Internet address: hufferd@us.ibm.com


"Amir Shalit" <amir@astutenetworks.com>@ece.cmu.edu on 12/31/2001 05:22:13
PM

Sent by:    owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu


To:    John Hufferd/San Jose/IBM@IBMUS
cc:    <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject:    RE: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement



It could have been defined as {IP address, port, channel_id}
or {IP address, port, stream_number}.

This would let you span multiple HBAs etc. and still be consistent
with other IP/ATM protocols like SCTP and AAL2.

Amir


-----Original Message-----
From: John Hufferd [mailto:hufferd@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 5:01 PM
To: Amir Shalit
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement



We overtly chose NOT to identify an ISID with a TCP/IP address, since the
ISID may span several HBAs and/or TCP/IP addresses.  It was more general
and consistent NOT to be tied to a  TCP/IP address.

.
.
.
John L. Hufferd
Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
IBM/SSG San Jose Ca
Main Office (408) 256-0403, Tie: 276-0403,  eFax: (408) 904-4688
Home Office (408) 997-6136, Cell: (408) 499-9702
Internet address: hufferd@us.ibm.com


"Amir Shalit" <amir@astutenetworks.com>@ece.cmu.edu on 12/31/2001 03:35:56
PM

Sent by:    owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu


To:    "Eddy Quicksall" <Eddy_Quicksall@ivivity.com>, "KRUEGER,MARJORIE
       \(HP-Roseville,ex1\)" <marjorie_krueger@hp.com>, Jim
       Hafner/Almaden/IBM@IBMUS
cc:    "ips@ece. cmu. edu \(E-mail\)" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject:    RE: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement



Marjorie,

If an "initiator/target portal group" concept is
"the collection of IP addresses which can be combined to create a single
iSCSI session."
why isn't it defined as such in the draft?

IMO, it would have been better to define ISID/TSID in simple networking
terms
like {TCP/IP address + Name} instead of coming up with network entity,
network portal
and portal group terminology.

Amir


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of
Eddy Quicksall
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 2:15 PM
To: KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1); Jim Hafner
Cc: ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)
Subject: RE: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement


Marjorie,

If "an initiator portal group is the same concept as the target portal
group", then it must be equivalent to the SCSI Initiator Port (because we
have said that the SCSI Target Port maps to an iSCSI Target Portal Group).

Comments?

Eddy

-----Original Message-----
From: KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1) [mailto:marjorie_krueger@hp.com]
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 4:48 PM
To: 'Eddy Quicksall'; Jim Hafner
Cc: ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)
Subject: RE: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement

Your assumption of what is meant by an initiator portal group is incorrect
(I don't think it's implied that IPG = IP???)  An initiator portal group is
the same concept as a target portal group - it's the collection of IP
addresses which can be combined to create a single iSCSI session.
Frequently this is thought of as an iSCSI HBA, but that is not necessarily
so, it could be a number of iSCSI HBAs, etc.

Marjorie Krueger
Networked Storage Architecture
Networked Storage Solutions Org.
Hewlett-Packard
tel: +1 916 785 2656
fax: +1 916 785 0391
email: marjorie_krueger@hp.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eddy Quicksall [mailto:Eddy_Quicksall@ivivity.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 10:39 AM
> To: Jim Hafner
> Cc: ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement
>
>
> Regarding answer 2 below:
> There is no given definition for an iSCSI Initiator Portal Group
(however,
> it is implied to be the same as the endpoint in 9.1.1, which would be the
> same as the SCSI Initiator Port). Since an iSCSI Initiator Portal Group
is
> the same as a SCSI Initiator Port and since an iSCSI Target Portal Group
is
> the same as a SCSI Target Port, then each session in answer number 2
would
> not have a "different SCSI initiator port"; hence you would have a
parallel
> nexus.
> One thing that is not clear in section 9.1.1 (however, it is loosely
> implied) is that the reuse of ISID's applies to a given initiator
endpoint
> (SCSI Initiator Port or what should be called an iSCSI Initiator Portal
> Group)). I think that should be made clear.
> What am I missing? Could it be that an iSCSI Initiator Portal Group is
not
> equivalent to a SCSI Target Port?
>
> Eddy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Hafner [mailto:hafner@almaden.ibm.com]
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 6:14 PM
> To: Eddy Quicksall
> Cc: ips
> Subject: RE: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement
>
>
> Eddy,
>
> The SCSI initiator port is modeled as the endpoint of the
> iSCSI session;
> the SCSI target port is modeled as the iSCSI target portal group.  The
> reason we did it this way was to allow more than one session
> between portal
> groups by allowing multi-plexing of sessions with different
> ISIDs from the
> same iSCSI initiator portal group to the same target portal group.
>
> So, the answer to your questions are:
> 1) no, we're assuming no more than on session *with the same
> ISID* to the
> same target portal group (that'd be more than one nexus), but
> by allowing
> different ISIDs we get different SCSI initiator ports.
> 2) no, we're allowing more than one session between an iSCSI initiator
> portal group and an iSCSI target portal group (each session
> has a different
> SCSI initiator port (id'ed by its ISID) but the same SCSI target port
> (id'ed by its portal group tag).
> 3) sort of, the ISID together with the iSCSI Initiator Name fully
> identifies the SCSI initiator port (and so defines the SCSI
> initiator port
> name and the identifier).
>
> Does that clear this up?
>
> Jim Hafner
>
>
> "Eddy Quicksall" <Eddy_Quicksall@iVivity.com> on 12/28/2001
> 07:19:33 PM
>
> To:   Jim Hafner/Almaden/IBM@IBMUS
> cc:   "ips@ece. cmu. edu \(E-mail\)" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
> Subject:  RE: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement
>
>
>
> Due to 2.5.3 (b) "Between a given SCSI initiator port and SCSI target
> port, there can be only one I_T nexus (session)", aren't we always
> "assuming no more than one session"?
>
> Or are you talking about more than one session between different SCSI
> initiator ports and a single SCSI target port?
>
> Is the ISID equivalent to SAM-2's Initiator Port Identifier?
>
>
> Eddy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Hafner [mailto:hafner@almaden.ibm.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 12:15 PM
> To: John Hufferd; Eddy Quicksall; Mallikarjun C.; Black_David@emc.com
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement
>
>
> Folks,
>
> Sorry for taking so long to jump into this discussion.
>
> There are a number of issues raised in this thread:
> 1) should "conservative reuse" of ISIDs be made a MUST
> 2) does "conservative reuse" imply that all hosts look "single SCSI
> ported"
>
> Here's my two cents (using "CR" as a shorthand for "conservative
> reuse")
>
> I don't believe that CR needs to be a MUST.  The only time this has
> any
> real value is in configurations that use SCSI persistent reservations
> (and
> where new SCSI target reservation features are enabled -- NB.  these
> features are yet to be approved but are working their way through the
> process). I don't think these are going to be (even in the future) the
> majority of installations.  There are many ways then that CR could be
> something that is not generally available in most drivers but is added
> by
> configuration and perhaps even "value add" (:-{)).
>
> In short, I don't see a strong case for this to be a MUST.  So, to
> David
> Black, my answer is that having a mechanism to enable this feature or
> have
> it as a "purchase requirement" is an acceptable mechanism to make sure
> the
> feature is there when needed, but it is need not be a requirement of
> the
> protocol.  To Mallikarjun, I think I'm agreeing with you that so long
> as
> there is a mechanism defined, iSCSI has done it's job.
>
> As for the second issue (raised by Mallikarjun), let's look at the
> definition of CR.  What is means is that when an iSCSI initiator
> (node)
> creates ISIDs for use in session identifiers, it attempts to reuse
> them
> as
> much as possible with different SCSI target ports (iSCSI target portal
> groups).  This is the only way that a SCSI target or LU can see the
> same
> SCSI initiator port through two or more of its SCSI target ports --
> that
> is, that the target can determine multiple paths *from* the same SCSI
> initiator port.   But, the model for generating ISIDs is not really at
> the
> node level but at the initiator portal group level.
> So, IMO, the conclusion that all hosts must then look "single SCSI
> ported"
> is too dramatic.  As I mentioned,  ISIDs are conceptually generated
> within
> initiator portal groups (that's why we defined the mechanism for
> generating
> ISIDs).  The conclusion I draw is that (assuming no more than one
> session
> to any given target portal group), an iSCSI initiator implementing CR
> will
> have as many SCSI initiator ports as iSCSI initiator portal groups
> (independent HBAs?).  Each initiator portal group would generate one
> ISID
> (that is different from that generated by/for the other initiator
> portal
> groups) and use CR for repeatability.  [This is consistent with a
> model
> that mapped SCSI initiator ports to initiator portal groups, which we
> had
> to abandon because the "assuming no more than one session..." was no
> acceptable as a requirement!!!]  This independence of ISIDs for each
> initiator portal group allows each initiator portal group to open
> sessions
> with *every* target portal group it knows about without having to
> worry
> about interfering with other sessions. [This has shades of the
> "partitioning" rule for ISIDs that has been discussed ad nauseum!!!]
>
> (I have a feeling that this note is not well composed -- it is the
> holidays, you know).  I hope I've addressed everyone's concerns and we
> can
> lay this one to rest.
>
> Jim Hafner
>
>
> John Hufferd
> 12/25/2001 08:49 AM
>
> To:   "Eddy Quicksall" <Eddy_Quicksall@iVivity.com>
> cc:   Jim Hafner/Almaden/IBM@IBMUS
> From: John Hufferd/San Jose/IBM@IBMUS
> Subject:  Re: FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement  (Document
> link:
>       Jim Hafner)
>
> You are correct.  The section was created by Jim Hafner, and via this
> note
> I will ask him if he could answer Mallikarjun Directly since I did not
> understand his issue.
>
> .
> .
> .
> John L. Hufferd
> Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
> IBM/SSG San Jose Ca
> Main Office (408) 256-0403, Tie: 276-0403,  eFax: (408) 904-4688
> Home Office (408) 997-6136, Cell: (408) 499-9702
> Internet address: hufferd@us.ibm.com
>
>
> "Eddy Quicksall" <Eddy_Quicksall@iVivity.com> on 12/24/2001 06:06:44
> PM
>
> To:   John Hufferd/San Jose/IBM@IBMUS
> cc:
> Subject:  FW: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement
>
>
>
> John,
>
> Were you the author of "conservative reuse"? I am wondering about some
> issues. Maybe you could educate me somewhat ...
>
> I started this subject in a different thread by saying that it may be
> good to make "conservative reuse" a MUST.
>
> I got one objection from Santosh below. Then David Black picked it up
> by basically agreeing with me. Then Mallikarjun objected to that.
>
> It seems like the objective would be to give targets a way to figure
> out that two or more sessions are coming from the same Initiator Port.
> That is needed support persistent reservations.
>
> If an initiator does not use "conservative reuse", I don't think
> targets will be able to make that determination.
>
> Comments?
>
> Eddy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mallikarjun C. [mailto:cbm@rose.hp.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 12:47 AM
> To: Black_David@emc.com
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement
>
> > I think this is headed towards "conservative reuse" being a MUST if
> > we're serious about support for shared persistent reservations.
>
> Mandating "conservative reuse" appears to force initiators to always
> act
> as a single initiator port (wrt one target; assuming only one session
> as
> an
> example) per initiator device - which rules out the case of an
> initiator
>
> intentionally wanting to present a different port to each target
> portal
> group.
>
> IMHO, if iSCSI provides an architected mechanism to support shared
> persistent reservations ("conservative reuse"),  that should be
> completely
> adequate to meet the expectations to be a legal SCSI protocol.
> --
> Mallikarjun
>
> Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
> Networked Storage Architecture
> Network Storage Solutions Organization
> Hewlett-Packard MS 5668
> Roseville CA 95747
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Black_David@emc.com>
> To: <santoshr@cup.hp.com>
> Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 4:50 PM
> Subject: iSCSI: "conservative reuse" requirement
>
>
> > Santosh Rao writes:
> >
> > > I am opposed to the suggestion that "conservative re-use" of ISIDs
> be
> > > made a MUST. This is really only required when initiators need to
> be
> > > using the new T10 Reservation scheme that can be shared
> > > across initiator ports.
> >
> > Those reservations are a Target feature.  With this approach, the
> ability
> > to use the target feature depends on details of the initiator
> > implementation.
> > More below ...
> >
> > > For those initiators that don't care about this type of
> reservation,
> > > conservative re-use is of no use and initiators may like to assign
> > > ISID's in a per-initiator node fashion, thereby, being able to use
> these
> > > ISIDs as a lookup index for the sessions on that initiator node.
> > >
> > > Hence, I suggest that "conservative re-use" be worded as
> > > "encouraged to use" or something to that effect, but not MUST USE.
> > >
> > > Comments ?
> >
> > The "initiator" is more than one entity.  The iSCSI HBA/NIC and
> driver
> > doesn't know whether shared persistent reservations are being used
> and
> > shouldn't have to care - they're just more SCSI commands to
> transport.
> > Some other entity (e.g., clustering software) will be generating the
> > shared persistent reservations.  This raise the possible scenario
> > involving a target that supports the new shared persistent
> reservations
> > and an entity that wants to use them.  The entity detects (via SCSI
> means,
> > e.g., something in a mode page) that the Target supports shared
> persistent
> > reservations, tries to use them, only to discover that they don't
> work
> > because the iSCSI HBA/NIC doesn't implement "conservative reuse".
> >
> > I'm worried about this causing both interoperability issues and
> possible
> > T10 issues -- from a T10 viewpoint, if shared persistent
> reservations
> > don't work, the initiating entity should have some SCSI-level means
> > of determining this ... if that means exists only on the Target, the
> > above scenario is iSCSI's problem (Target can't query Initiator to
> > determine whether it does "conservative reuse"), and having a
> separate
> > initiator side means that the entity has to check only for iSCSI
> (and
> > not for any other SCSI transport) does not seem like the right
> > approach.
> >
> > I think this is headed towards "conservative reuse" being a MUST if
> > we're serious about support for shared persistent reservations.
> >
> > Comments?
> > --David
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> > EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> > +1 (508) 249-6449 *NEW*      FAX: +1 (508) 497-8500
> > black_david@emc.com         Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
>