RE: FW: FW: iSCSI: support value of ?

To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: FW: FW: iSCSI: support value of ?
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:37:59 +0200
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 005B1F98C2256B66_="
Importance: High
Sender: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu

If nobody speaks up I will terminate the use of ? Julo

----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 20-02-02 18:34 -----

"Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>

20-02-02 17:52

To: Eddy Quicksall <Eddy_Quicksall@ivivity.com>
cc: "ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
Subject: RE: FW: FW: iSCSI: support value of ?

Julian:

I first brought up the subject of eliminating ? last December.
Your reply is attached below.
Perhaps this latest round of e-mail postings is enough to
support my contention that ? should be eliminated??
Thanks,
Bob Russell

>
> From Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com Sat Dec 22 01:57:36 2001
> To: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: iSCSI: enquiry key
>
> Bob,
>
> "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu> wrote on 20-12-2001 12:48:31:
>
> > Julian:
> >
> ... snip snip ...
> >
> > My personal opinion is that "key=?" seems fairly useless -- if they
> are
> > to operate correctly, both sides of a connection really have to know
> the
> > values of all the keys at all times, and the rules for negotiation
> make
> > it clear how and when these values change. The only real "enquiry"
> > situation is when an initiator is attempting to discover targets, and
> > this is handled completely differently by the use of "SendTargets".
> > So when is there a use for either side to send "key=?". Unless there
> > is a clear example where this is useful, we should eliminate it and
> thus
> > remove another special case during parameter processing.
> >
> I am not sure that we have all the use scenarios to afford removing it

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Eddy Quicksall wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mallikarjun C. [mailto:cbm@rose.hp.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 3:19 PM
> To: Eddy Quicksall
> Subject: Re: FW: FW: iSCSI: support value of ?
>
> Eddy,
>
> [ Sorry, I was off on long weekend. ]
>
> I tend to concur with you guys. I do not see
> a good usage scenario for "?" at the moment.
> If we add in the support in MIB (if it isn't
> there already) for querying the default capabilities
> of an iSCSI entity, that should be completely
> adequate to retire the "?" feature.
>
> Regards.
> --
> Mallikarjun
>
>
> Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
> Networked Storage Architecture
> Network Storage Solutions Organization
> MS 5668 Hewlett-Packard, Roseville.
> cbm@rose.hp.com
>
>
> Eddy Quicksall wrote:
> >
> > Mallikarjun,
> >
> > I am thinking that the value of the "?" syntax is very limited and appears
> > to me as though it could be something that got left in from past needs.
> >
> > Do you think it has any use other than for vendor specifics? Can you give
> me
> > an example of where it would be needed?
> >
> > Eddy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]

> > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 3:21 PM
> > To: Eddy_Quicksall@ivivity.com
> > Cc: Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: Re: FW: iSCSI: support value of ?
> >
> > Eddy,
> >
> > The '?' was originally proposed as a form of Enquiry analogous to
> something
> > like a PDISC for Fibre Channel ports.
> >
> > However, an Enquiry is more useful if it is a scheme to query the target
> for
> > all its supported capabilities, rather than its current value.
> >
> > A query for the current negotiated value was of some use in the older
> login
> > negotiation model wherein each side independently computed the login
> > negotiation result. In such a model, the '?' could be used by initiators
> to
> > verify that its negotiation result was in-sync with that of the target.
> >
> > With the new login negotiation model, wherein, the target computes the
> > result
> > of the negotiation and sends it back to the initiator, the initiator knows
> > the
> > current negotiated values anyway. Hence, what is more useful is a scheme
> to
> > query the target for its supported capabilities.
> >
> > IMO, the '?' semantics should be modified to return the target's supported
> > capabilities and not its current negotiatied value.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Santosh
> >
> > >
> > > Well, given that the initiator should know everything (unless I missed
> > > something below), what good is it other than for vendor specific?
> > >
> > > The reason I'm asking is because it seems silly to support it if it has
> no
> > > use.
> > >
> > > Can someone give me an example of where it is needed (other than for
> > vendor
> > > specific).
> > >
> > > Eddy
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:30 PM
> > > To: Eddy Quicksall
> > > Subject: Re: FW: iSCSI: support value of ?
> > >
> > >
> > > The same value as Enquiry in SCSI. I heard no other comment than yours.
> > >
> > > Julo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Eddy Quicksall <Eddy_Quicksall@ivivity.com>
> > > 14-02-02 19:51
> > >
> > > To: Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> > > cc:
> > > Subject: FW: iSCSI: support value of ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I didn't see any responses on this. Is the "?" syntax of any good other
> > than
> > > for vendor specific commands?
> > >
> > > Eddy
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Eddy Quicksall [mailto:Eddy_Quicksall@ivivity.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 5:29 PM
> > > To: ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)
> > > Subject: iSCSI: support value of ?
> > >
> > > Section 2.2.4 of draft 10 says:
> > >
> > > The value "?" with any key has the meaning of enquiry and should be
> > > answered with the current value or "NotUnderstood".
> > >
> > > What good is this?
> > >
> > > You should already know the answer as a result of login or text
> > > negotiations.
> > >
> > > Here are the only keys that can be used in FFP by the initiator:
> > >
> > > 1) SendTargets - we already have defined behavior for that key and
> > > those get the information anyway
> > > 2) TargetName - that is IO by initiator so he can't send that key
> > > anyway. Also, he has to already know the target.
> > > 3) TargetAlias - "this name MUST be communicated to the initiator
> > > during a Login". So that is already known.
> > > 4) InitiatorAlias - the initiator should already know his alias
> > > 5) TargetAddress - the target is the only one that can send this
> in
> > a
> > > response
> > > 6) MaxRecvPDULength - this should be known from the negotiations
> > > 7) Vendor Specific - Could this be the reason? If so, lets say
> that
> > so
> > > we don't have to add a lot of silly code. Or, lets say that the response
> > to
> > > "?" can be "Reject" meaning that we don't support that syntax
> (currently,
> > > the definition of the "Reject value" does not fit this).
> > >
> > > Eddy
> > >
> > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1B64A.37A65F90
> > > Content-Type: text/html;
> > > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > >
> > > <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
> > > xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
> > > xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
> > >
> > > <head>
> > > <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
> > > charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> > >
> > >
> > > <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document>
> > > <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9">
> > > <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9">
> > > <link rel=3DFile-List href=""> > > > 
> > > <style>
> > > 
> > > </style>
> > > </head>
> > >
> > > <body lang=3DEN-US style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'>
> > >
> > > <div class=3DSection1>
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dnavy face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>W=
> > > ell,
> > > given that the initiator should know everything (unless I missed =
> > > something
> > > below), what good is it other than for vendor =
> > > specific?<o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dnavy face=3DArial> > >

> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
> > > ![if =
> > >
> !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p>=
> > >
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dnavy face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>T=
> > > he reason
> > > I’m asking is because it seems silly to support it if it has no =
> > > use.<o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dnavy face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
> > > ![if
> !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span=
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dnavy face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>C=
> > > an
> > > someone give me an example of where it is needed (other than for vendor
> > > specific).<o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dnavy face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
> > > ![if =
> > >
> !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p>=
> > >
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dnavy face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>E=
> > > ddy<o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dnavy face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
> > > ![if =
> > >
> !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p>=
> > >
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dblack
> > > face=3DTahoma> > > style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
> > > Message----- 
> > > From: Julian Satran
> > > [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com] 
> > > Sent: Friday, February =
> > > 15, 2002
> > > 12:30 PM 
> > > To: Eddy Quicksall 
> > > Subject: Re: FW: iSCSI: =
> > > support
> > > value of ?
> > >
> > > > > face=3D"Times New Roman"> > > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if =
> > > !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > > > style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
> > > 12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'> =
> > > Roman"> > > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> 
> > > > > style=3D'font-size:
> > > 10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>The same value as Enquiry in
> =
> > > SCSI.  I
> > > heard no other comment than yours. > > color=3Dblack> > > style=3D'color:black'> 
> > > 
> > > > > style=3D'font-size:
> > > 10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>Julo > > color=3Dblack> > > style=3D'color:black'> 
> > > <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> > > style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
> > > <![endif]> > > style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:
> > > windowtext'><o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > <table border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
> > > style=3D'width:100.0%;mso-cellspacing:
> > > 1.5pt;margin-left:.5in'>
> > > <tr>
> > > <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
> > > <![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]> > > size=3D3
> > > color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"> > > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;
> > > mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>
> > > </td>
> > > <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
> > > > > face=3Dsans-serif> > > =
> > >
> style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;font-weight:=
> > > bold'>Eddy
> > > Quicksall <Eddy_Quicksall@ivivity.com> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > > =
> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > > > > style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
> > > font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>14-02-02 19:51 > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > > =
> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > > </td>
> > > <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
> > > > > style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>   
> =
> > >  
> > >   > > style=3D'color:black'> 
> > > > > style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>  =
> > >    
> > >   To:        Julian =
> > > Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL > > color=3Dblack> 
> > > > > style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>  =
> > >    
> > >   cc:         > > color=3Dblack> > > style=3D'color:black'> 
> > > > > style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black'>  =
> > >    
> > >   Subject:        FW: iSCSI: support value =
> > > of ? > > color=3Dblack> 
> > > 
> > > > > style=3D'font-size:
> > > 7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>      =
> > >   > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > > </td>
> > > </tr>
> > > </table>
> > >
> > > > > color=3Dblack
> > > face=3D"Times New Roman"> > > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> 
> > > 
> > > > > style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
> > > font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I didn't see any responses on this. Is =
> > > the
> > > "?" syntax of any good other than for vendor specific =
> > > commands? > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </f=
> > > ont> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Eddy</fon=
> > > t> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </f=
> > > ont> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DTahoma> > > style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
> > > Message----- 
> > > From: Eddy Quicksall =
> > > [mailto:Eddy_Quicksall@ivivity.com]<span

> > > style=3D'font-weight:bold'> 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 5:29 PM > > style=3D'font-weight:
> > > bold'> 
> > > To: ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail) > > style=3D'font-weight:bold'> 
> > > Subject: iSCSI: support value of ? > > color=3Dblack> > > style=3D'color:black'> > > style=3D'color:black;
> > > mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </=
> > > font> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > > style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Section 2.2.4 =
> > > of draft
> > > 10 says: =
> > > > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </=
> > > font> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DCourier> > > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>The value
> > > "?" with any key has the meaning of enquiry and should =
> > > be > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DCourier> > > style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>answered =
> > > with the
> > > current value or "NotUnderstood". > > color=3Dblack> > > style=3D'color:black'> > > style=3D'color:black;
> > > mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </=
> > > font> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > > style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>What good is =
> > > this? > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </=
> > > font> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > > style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>You should =
> > > already know
> > > the answer as a result of login or text =
> > > negotiations. > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </=
> > > font> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > > style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Here are the =
> > > only keys
> > > that can be used in FFP by the initiator: > > color=3Dblack> > > style=3D'color:black'> > > style=3D'color:black;
> > > mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </=
> > > font> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>1)</font=
> > > > > > size=3D1 color=3Dblack> =
> > >    
> > >   > > style=3D'color:black'>SendTargets –
> > > we already have defined behavior for that key and those get the =
> > > information
> > > anyway > > style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:
> > > windowtext'><o:p></o:p>
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>2)</font=
> > > > > > size=3D1 color=3Dblack> =
> > >    
> > >   > > style=3D'color:black'>TargetName –
> > > that is IO by initiator so he can't send that key anyway. Also, he has =
> > > to
> > > already know the target. > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>3)</font=
> > > > > > size=3D1 color=3Dblack> =
> > >    
> > >   > > style=3D'color:black'>TargetAlias –
> > >  "this name MUST be communicated to the initiator during a
> > > Login". So that is already known. > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>4)</font=
> > > > > > size=3D1 color=3Dblack> =
> > >    
> > >   > > style=3D'color:black'>InitiatorAlias
> > > – the initiator should already know his alias =
> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>5)</font=
> > > > > > size=3D1 color=3Dblack> =
> > >    
> > >   > > style=3D'color:black'>TargetAddress
> > > – the target is the only one that can send this in a response =
> > > > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>6)</font=
> > > > > > size=3D1 color=3Dblack> =
> > >    
> > >   > > style=3D'color:black'>MaxRecvPDULength
> > > – this should be known from the negotiations > > color=3Dblack><span

> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>7)</font=
> > > > > > size=3D1 color=3Dblack> =
> > >    
> > >   > > style=3D'color:black'>Vendor
> > > Specific – Could this be the reason? If so, lets say that so we =
> > > don't have to
> > > add a lot of silly code. Or, lets say that the response to =
> > > "?" can be
> > > "Reject" meaning that we don't support that syntax =
> > > (currently, the
> > > definition of the "Reject value" does not fit this). =
> > > > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </=
> > > font> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > > > face=3DArial> > >
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Eddy</fo=
> > > nt> > > color=3Dblack> > > color=3Dblack> > >
> style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
> > > 
> > >
> > > </div>
> > >
> > > </body>
> > >
> > > </html>
> > >
> > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1B64A.37A65F90--
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ##################################
> > Santosh Rao
> > Software Design Engineer,
> > HP-UX iSCSI Driver Team,
> > Hewlett Packard, Cupertino.
> > email : santoshr@cup.hp.com
> > Phone : 408-447-3751
> > ##################################
>

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