SORT BY:

LIST ORDER
THREAD
AUTHOR
SUBJECT


SEARCH

IPS HOME


    [Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

    IPS: (very) DRAFT(y) London Minutes



    Apologies for some glitches in taking these minutes -
    there are some areas in which they're less than complete
    (noted with double square brackets [[..]] below).  Please
    send additions/corrections/etc. to me and/or the list.
    
    Presenters - please send me the slides used in London
    if you have not already done so.
    
    Thanks,
    --David
    
    IP Storage (IPS) Working Group
    DRAFT Minutes
    London Meeting - August 6 and 7, 2001
    -------------------------------------
    
    -----> Monday, August 6 <---------
    
    Administrivia and Agenda Bash - see bashed agenda.
    
    Discussion of IETF last call.  Process will involve emailed comments
    directly to authors, so draft editors need to make sure author addresses
    (including email) are up to date.  There is no formal process akin to a
    T10 or T11 letter ballot and comment resolution.
    
    -- Plugfest - Robert Russell, UNH
    
    Testing of implementations against each other, a reference implementation,
    and a conformance test suite (latter two focused on Login).
    
    Many implementations did not do any Login, most who did only implemented 2
    or 3 keys, DataPDULength, InitialR2T, ImmediateData were the most common.
    
    Login was a disaster - all kinds of things not done right, ignored,
    instability.  Most systems wanted to go to full feature phase based on
    default login values rather than actually engage in negotiation.
    
    Set of 20 points were posted to mailing list, most have been dealt with
    (e.g., strings are null-terminated, not null-separated).
    
    CmdSN/StatSN increment at once, not after completion of Login.
    [[NOTE: There may have been other items that are missing from my notes.]]
    
    Resolved on list - can Initiator stop short of max amount of unsolicited
    data?
    	A: Initiator can do what it wants.
    
    Open Issue - Simplification of Login.  Separate security sub-phase,
    OpParamReset.
    	Can operational parameters be exchanged before security phase?
    
    [[ There may be some things missing here. ]]
    
    Login needs state diagram, specification of legal combinations and
    sequences.
    
    At least one implementation did perform error recovery.
    
    -- iSCSI Login - Julian Satran, IBM
    
    Login Structure: Lots of parameters.  List request for two phases - the two
    phases
    	are currently implicit, separated by SecurityContextComplete.
    
    Design concern is minimizing number of handshakes, not minimizing
    programming
    	complexity.
    Comments from audience that simpler is better.  Complex things tend to have
    complex
    	failure modes.  Need to be careful about adding too many new
    handshakes.
    
    Julian's Proposals:  (1) SecurityContextComplete by itself in message
    exchange.
    		         (2) Should always have a security exchange.
                         (3) Both phases explicit but optional.
    
    Discussion: Need a much more structured description.  Has too much branching
    	complexity at the moment.  Two separate phases with defined
    transitions
    	between them would help greatly.
    
    Discussion of whether to use SecurityContextComplete key to indicate end of
    	security phase vs. a byte in the command.  Direction is to keep
    using the
    	key.
    
    The spec needs to include a state machine (and transition table), and a much
    	more organized (e.g., in one place) description of the login
    process.
    
    State in the command would help make it clear.  The WG sense of the room was
    that
    	explicitly indicating the login state (e.g., in security or
    operational
    	negotiation phase) via state in the command was preferred to
    requiring
    	the participants to implicitly track the state (provides a check
    that
    	things are where the participant thinks they are).
    
    -- iSCSI Security - David Black
    
    I noted two important questions and answers:
    
    (1) What about corporate firewalls?  Will they block ESP traffic.
    A: If they do, have to sent iSCSI without ESP to the firewall.
    
    (2) How does one get SPI values and keys from iSCSI negotiation into ESP?
    A: Manual key interface, which most IPsec implementations have.
    
    [[Notes are sketchy on this because I have a hard time taking notes and
    	presenting at the same time.  Please add anything important.]]
    
    -- IKE and IPsec - William Dixon, Microsoft
    
    Preview of draft-aboba-ips-iscsi-security-00.txt.  See that draft (now
    available).
    
    -- Framing - Steph Bailey, Sandburst
    
    All specification of framing mechanisms is being taken out of the main
    	iSCSI draft and will reside in
    draft-ietf-tsvwg-tcp-ulp-frame-00.txt.
    	A -01 version should be coming in the near future.
    
    Two framing mechanisms are described in that draft:
    
    (1) Periodic Markers - modified receivers, but no modifications to sender's
    	TCP stack.  Probabilistic bound on required buffering, but much less
    than
    	a window per active connection.  Hardware will be complex.
    
    (2) PDU Alignment - modified receivers, modified senders to align PDUs to
    TCP
    	segments.  Cleanly bounded buffering, unless alignment fails.
    Modifications
    	to TCP are needed to detect a middlebox that has resegmented and
    destroyed
    	alignment.
    
    Each mechanism is applicable to different situations, hence both are in the
    	tsvwg draft.  Common interface to both mechanisms.
    
    iSCSI recommendations:
    	- Remove marker annex and refer to tsvwg draft
    	- Define negotiation for PDU alignment
    	- Strongly encourage PDU alignment implementation (SHOULD).
    
    Summary of proposal on what iSCSI should require for framing:
    	- Receivers can do nothing, PDU alignment, or all 3.  Marker impl.
    requires
    		PDU alignment framing
    	- Senders should implement all 3, MUST implement markers.
    
    	These don't match because want receivers to call the shots.  Markers
    are
    	easy to implement on send, hard to implement on receive.
    
    It was not possible to obtain rough consensus in the room on this proposal
    or
    a revised version of it presented the following day.  Will have to be
    resolved
    on list starting from a reasonably detailed explanation of the rationale for
    these requirements from the framing folks.
    
    -- Error Recovery - Mallikarjun, HP
    
    Reality is somewhere between "Trust but verify" and "can't trust transport".
    
    Four levels of recovery - within-command, -connection, -session, and full
    session
    	recovery.  Only the last is required, others are options.
    
    Command counting is needed for both ordering AND flow control.
    
    Error recovery tools:
    	- Header and Data digests
    	- SNACK
    	- Recovery R2T (negotiable)
    	- Unsolicited NOP-IN (e.g., sequence fixup)
    	- Retry (command replay, failover, and hole-plugging)
    
    Topic 1: SNACK issues (slide 8)  Alternatives
    	- Assign a CmdSN (deadlock issues)
    	- Accept non-determinism [e.g., lost SNACK] (odds of loss are low)
    	- Allow SNACK retransmit (may get data retransmit)
    	- Define timer-based SNACK retransmit (Ouch!)
    	- Drop SNACK
    Seems to be important for tapes (partial I/O recovery).
    
    Proposal: Keep SNACK, if we drop it we're betting on the TCP checksum
    	(or the ESP MAC).  Problem with moderate rate of checksum failure
    	to detect errors
    
    ------> Tuesday <---------
    
    SNACK discussion centered on the need for iSCSI error recovery for
    existing tape.  Some current tape devices do things that make SCSI
    level recovery from a failed command impossible (e.g., send successful
    completion to write command before actually writing to the tape).
    There is a new tape command set in the works that will improve this
    situation by using absolute block addressing for tapes rather than
    the current relative addressing, but there's a need to deal with
    existing tape devices.
    
    Sense of the room - keep SNACK, keep it optional, keep it for existing
    	tape because consequences of not having it are horrendous.
    
    Topic 2 - Error Recovery levels, one key to say which level rather than
    	key per type of recovery.  0 would be required recovery, 1-4 are
    options
    	up to command replay.
    
    Sense of the room - Adopt hierarchical approach to error recovery
    specification.
    	Number of levels and order thereof to be worked out on list.
    
    Mallikarjun will send paragraphs to list describing each level, what it does
    over and above the one below it, and what features of iSCSI that it uses.
    There was a comment that level 1 in Mallikarjun's chart may need to be a
    MUST
    to provide effective support for tape.  Needs to be discussed on the list.
    
    --- Main Document - Julian Satran, IBM
    
    NOP issue - NOP may close command window.  Proposed changes:
    	- Remove P bit.  If there's data, DataSegment length indicates.
    	- If task tag is valid, response is required (ITT valid = Initiator
    		wants answer, TTT valid = Target wants answer, NOP-In cannot
    		have both tags valid).
    In addition, the I bit must be set when immediate data is present
    
    Sense of room is to make these changes - objections should be sent to the
    list.
    
    Serialization Interlock; this is about being able to preserve
    command ordering in the presence of things like a CHECK CONDITION
    caused by a temporary queue full situation.  The T10 advice that ACA is
    not the right solution has been accepted.  Julian will follow this up
    with T10 at their September meeting.  The alternative appears to be to
    use Unit Attention (which has changed in the past year to have properties
    more useful in this situation) as it only affects a single initiator.
    
    -- Simplification Ideas - David Black
    
    Four proposals resulting from a solicitation for "radical simplification"
    ideas
    on the list.
    
    1] Eliminate Multiple Connection sessions - no real interest in pursuing
    this.
    2] Login Templates - take up on list as part of general discussion of Login.
    	This is about organizing all the login keys into a small number of
    sets
    	where if one key from the set is present, all the keys must be
    present,
    	and possibly requiring the keys to appear in a particular order.
    3] Eliminate CRCs in favor of MACs - take up at interim meeting.
    4] Eliminate Immediate data - take to list, at a minimum consider removing
    	the ability to use both immediate and unsolicited data in the same
    command.
    
    -- Naming and Discovery - John Hufferd, IBM
    
    Specification pieces of N&D are now in main document.  Want N&D to
    	become an informational RFC.
    Sense of Room - approve this direction, N&D draft to become an informational
    RFC.
    
    IQN Uniqueness.  This is about making sure that the new holder of a domain
    name
    doesn't define any iSCSI names that match ones defined by the old holder.
    	Two choices:
    	- Enterprise Number
    	- Date (yyyy-mm)
    
    The Area Director commented that IANA is not set up to handle a large number
    of enterprise number allocation requests, making the second approach
    preferable.
    
    Sense of room - use date of assignment of domain name to naming authority.
    	Details to be worked out and posted to list.
    
    Case Sensitivity
    	- Currently case-sensitive.  Now recommend NAMEPREP
    case-insensitivity,
    	draft-ietf-idn-nameprep-05.txt.  Use NAMEPREP in admin tools,
    byte-wise
    	compare in implementations.
    
    The Area Director noted that the right thing to do was to allow the IDN WG
    to standardize NAMEPREP.  If they abandon it, IPS could pick it up.
    
    Sense of room - Wire format is NAMEPREP'ed names, receivers do bytewise
    compare,
    	admin tools MUST ensure that all names are in NAMEPREP format (i.e.,
    	iSCSI implementations don't have to check this).
    
    Send Targets issues - Bookmarks vs. Option 5 issue will go to the list.  N&D
    team
    	(Mark Bakke?) needs to generate summary of current alternatives to
    start
    	discussion.
    
    Sense of room - "iscsi" target canonical name MUST NOT be used (reserved).
    
    Issue of whether to include Alias support in protocol.  Room was
    approximately
    	evenly split on this, hence the issue was taken to the list, where
    the
    	first attempt to resolve it subsequently failed.  
    
    -- iSNS - Josh Tseng, Nishan
    
    Relationship of SLP and iSNS: SLP for discovery, iSNS for active management.
    
    iSNS + SLP is better than SLP alone (SLP to discover iSNS, use iSNS
    services).
    Will work with SLP community to improve SLP.  SLP DA integrates will with
    iSNS
    server, providing centralized management of SLP discovery (can still use SLP
    on wire).  Full integration with iSNS client on each iSCSI device improves
    further (e.g., access list configuration).
    
    iSNS open source will integrate with other databases, e.g. LDAP, MS Active
    Directory
    
    Sense of room to approve iSNS MIB as an official IPS WG work item - next
    version
    	will be an official WG draft (draft-ietf-ips-...).
    
    -- SLP Discovery for iSCSI - Marjorie Krueger, HP
    
    Document is getting close to done.  Recent changes were to add portal group
    tags
    	and describe unicast SLP.  SLP is moving from proposed to draft
    standard.
    	 RFC 3082 provides SLP notification (currently Experimental).
    
    -- iSCSI MIB - Marjorie Kreuger, HP
    
    UML is done, lots of counters have been discarded.  Is mostly consistent
    with -07.
    
    Need to get work started on SCSI MIB - volunteers should see Marj.
    
    NOTE: did not take up SCSI model mapping to iSCSI - Marj will post
    recommended
    	rules and pointer to presentation to list.
    


Home

Last updated: Tue Sep 04 01:03:55 2001
6315 messages in chronological order